What's All This "Woman Scientist" Stuff, Anyhow?

Hilarious. Stupid debate - If you can do it, do it. If you can't, move out of the way. I am a woman in engineering. I promise you - I have met MORE than my fair share of men in engineering that I am far from technically impressed by. I've met some women too that I don't think have the 'stuff'. I've met both men and women that are damn good at what they do. Your argument makes the assumption that every engineer that is a male is a good engineer. HA! Nope. Women are just a smaller sample size. Engineering is one of the most exciting fields there is. We get to build things and make stuff work. People don't think of it as that - which is tragic. They view is as boring. It's not boring - it's creative and a puzzle. Science is the explanation of the world around us, math is the quantification of it. These are tools. People lose sight of that too. Cite all the data you want and form whatever opinions make you feel safe. Bottomline - I don't care what it is - if someone wants to learn something, let them. If they want to become something, give them a chance. All of us have a spark of brilliance within us and shame on us for not tapping into it and fostering it more. Old attitudes have taken too long to change in this area. As far as 'male dominated' countries taking the 'lead'...That has nothing to do with them being 'male dominated'. Our education system stinks and that has nothing to do with gender. Their citizens probably watch TV a lot less too. Please.

I found the article and the comments very amusing. I have been an engineer (man) for 25 years. During that time I have recruited, hired, and worked with dozens of engineers and other technical people from all walks of life --- male, female, different nationalities, races and yes, sexual orientations. I managed EE’s, ME’s, ChemE’s, and physicists.

I have observed there were not as many woman applicants when I started as there are now even though men applicants still far outnumber women. I have also observed that some of the finest engineers I have known were men and some were women. I also observed some of the worst engineers I have known were men and some were women. I ask each applicant “Why did you decide to be an engineer.” I usually hear “I was really good at math.” or “I was interested in science.” The best engineers, men and women, have told me “I was always interested in how things work.”

In the United States the practitioner is an engineer. In Europe and Asia the person is an Engineer, a professional respected on the same level as a physician. Once society understands this giant playground in which we live is the creation of Engineers, perhaps we will see more people enter the field.

***The following is a comment from May 1, repeated here with Bob Pease's response:

I just felt I had to get this off my chest. I feel shocked and ashamed with the attitudes of most males in the science and technical fields regarding female talent in their fields.

(If I ever saw this happening, as you describe below, I would be ashamed and shocked, too, and I would do something about it./rap)

The Joan of Arc Effect

I cannot argue against the fact that fewer women have a good aptitude for science than men. What I want to attract attention to is the male attitude towards those few women that have a better aptitude for science than they do. Let’s face it, girls good in science get a pretty rough ride in school. Because of that rough ride, those who survive to graduation have significantly better aptitudes than their average male colleagues.

(They also develop a very gutsy attitude. From what I have seen./rap)

The rough ride turns into all out war when they hit the workplace.

(That is TERRIBLE. It should not be that way./rap)

Most men when faced with a technically more competent woman feel threatened, especially when people like Bob Pease tell them that this should not be, that women are no threat as they do not have the aptitude to be good in science.

(Excuse me, but it sounds as if you didn't read what I said. I plainly said that the percentages of women with the aptitudes suitable for engineering and science, are smaller than for men - BUT those that are good are REALLY GOOD. And I support them. I like to encourage them./rap)

In my 37 years as an engineer, I have to confess, that the women entering my field were head and shoulders above the average man in the field when it comes to aptitude and skills.

(Have not exactly seen that. I think I have seen a distribution that is COMPARABLE to the distribution of men.../rap)

As soon as men around realize this, the all out war begins.

(That is very unfortunate. I've never seen that./rap)

If you think women gossip, you ain’t seen nothing when it comes to the old boys’ club. The attack seems to be all consuming of the men. Everything from misinformation, setups, and sabotage.

(MORE on this shortly./rap)

It’s like a never ending Frosh Week for the women. The women are given the jobs that nobody wants, or that have evaded completion in the past. When the women succeed where no man in the organization has succeeded before, matters get worse.

(If I had such an excellent woman working for me, I would heap praise on her, (not, unfair burdens) and I'd make damn sure she got good raises and more good challenges, and some promotions. NOTE, I do not like to promote people until they get up to positions where they become un-suitable. (Per the Peter Principle. ) I'm in favor of a "technical laddder, as well as a management ladder."/rap)

Work piles on, and it becomes a spectator sport watching the women jump through hoops. Credit is always taken by men, and they get visibly rewarded, talked up and promoted.

(That may happen some places, but it should not happen, and it should not be allowed to happen. How obscene./rap)

The women’s reward is a few kind words, and then back to the usual harassment a moment later.

I’ve seen a woman, right out of school, jump into mixed signal circuit design. In her first design, she did an elegant circuit design, built a prototype, fully tested it on the bench, and in the environmental chamber, laid out a PCB that was a textbook example on how to lay out mixed signal circuits, with no revisions necessary. She did this while learning the CAD system. She did the job in less time, and to the perfection that none of even the experienced men could have done. When she was wiring her prototype, men would sneak by and change resistor values in her model, substitute bad components, change wiring connections, reverse diodes, power supplies - you name it.

(THAT sounds like sexual harrassment. Maybe 40 or 30 years ago, such mistreatment would be shrugged off, but these days, she would be well justified in SUING these cretins who would sabotage good work. And her boss ought to back her up. This sounds very SHAMEFUL, that people were trying to prevent her from doing a good job. I have no objection to some good-natured heckling of young employees, but the incidents you described are COMPLETELY out of line./rap)

I’m sure it hurt, but she persevered. So they piled the work on her, and she excelled in everything - design, testing, preparing and giving technical courses, field support, technology transfer, contract administration, you name it. She was able to act in anyone’s position while they were away. She always got rave appraisals, but never a promotion.

(If I treated my workers unfairly, I'd expect them to walk out on me. I want the work of MY group to be superior, and I want superior workers like her to do well, and to be encouraged by everybody. And by GOOD PAY./rap)

After 15 years she was still at the lowest possible entry level position, a level lower in her category that any man held in the organization! Her position was reviewed on numerous occasions, but somehow it never got enough points to warrant a higher level,

(It sounds like her boss was not helping her. She should have AT LEAST transferred to a different group or department where she would be appreciated./rap)

even though at one downsizing she was given the additional duties of two other men who had been considerably up the pay scale. After 15 years doing work that she was truly talented at, she baled out of the technical field that she loved, and shot up the promotion ladder. (2 males at higher pay levels were immediately hired to replace her.)

(This picture is TRULY unfortunate, and shameful. It's too bad that she waited so long. She could have had a job in a good group, for most of those 15 years, if she had "stood on her 2 hind feet". And walked away from that stupid boss, much earlier./rap)

Women cannot defy the axiom that women are no good at science.

(Some do. I saw a very good write-up in the In-flight magazine for Austrian Airlines, about some of the EXCELLENT (and widely praised and acclaimed) women scientists in Austria. Now, I must say, I do not expect "ENGINEERING" to have the same appreciation as in "SCIENCE". Madame Curie was a leader in science. Can we name comparable women heroes in Engineering? Not so many... sigh. But we WILL./rap)

The women that are promoted in science tend to be the ditzes, those who rely heavily on men for help, that men can feel superior to.

(I have not seen that. Maybe you have. Refer to my comments on the Austrian situation./rap)

Here I again agree with Bob, that the women promoted are not good at science.

(I don't think I ever said that./rap)

Most of the other technically talented women, I came across through the years, couldn’t take the torment of being lucky enough to actually be hired in a technical job. One became an alcoholic, another an Amway salesperson, scores of others just faded away quietly.

(Again, that's not what I have seen. Maybe that is what you have seen. How unfortunate./rap)

I was appalled when I learned that a fellow engineer routinely discarded all the job applications from female engineers. When I confronted him, he stated that from past experience, women engineers are nothing but trouble, as they bring out the worst in their male co-workers. Amen.

(How unfortunate. He's not prepared to hire - or even consider hiring a highly superior woman, and act as her MENTOR? Then he is missing out on some excellent engineers. By the way, I have seen a lot of young MEN engineers who needed a lot of mentoring, and for some of them, the effort was worth it. Some became excellent engineers./rap)

Would it not be more humane to simply refuse them the technical education, Bob?

(THAT is not the conclusion I came to, and I utterly disagree./rap)

Certainly a lot simpler that trying to change the attitudes of the vast majority of technical males. Talk about ego problems.

I asked the woman who persevered for 15 years, why she didn’t accept the invitation to join the program to appear at high schools to encourage girls to enter scientific and technical fields. She said that if she were honest, she would have to warn all the budding girl scientists to stay away, as it just wasn’t worth the horrible cost.

(SHE had a horrible experience. That may happen more often than we like, BUT even you must admit, that was at least 10 or 15 years ago, maybe more. Women who have been persecuted in their jobs have (more recently) fought back and have won lawsuits on sexual discrimination. Worst of all, if SHE continued to work for the same boss for 15 years, she was not bold enough to transfer to a good boss who would deserve her excellent work. If she kept putting up with the same boss, who would not support her and protect her properly, then she is partly guilty of not doing all necessary things for her welfare. I know very few men engineers who would tolerate this "mushroom" treatment for 10 or 5 years. It's not clear why she didn't show the gumption to tell her boss goodbye. I did that once, and it took me about 10 months, until I was able to MAKE THE RIGHT MOVE, in the right way, at the right time. I did not make that move lightly. But I did it, decisively. Most women I know (in or out of engineering) have plenty of GUMPTION to move to a more decent place. But admittedly, that is probably a more recent phenomenon./rap)

Even sadder, she admitted that she is very careful not to let on to her own two sons in any way that she is technically competent.

(Yeah, sad./rap)

So maybe Bob, your mother also went through the wars like Joan of Arc, and never told you her tale of hurt.

(No, my mother DEFINITELY got educated and trained to be a teacher. She went to a "Normal School" which is now equivalent to a Teachers' College. She taught mostly in grades 2, 3, 4, from 1932 to 1940, and then as a substitute teacher, from 1958 to 1972, or so. She may have taught 4th-grade science, but she never worked in any TECHNICAL field. SHE was a farmer's wife, and SHE would never have put up with any of that GARBAGE. She was a fairly independent-minded woman./rap)

P.S. I'm married to a technically talented woman - a very very special person.

(WELL, I support that. My wife can take on any technical or semi-technical tasks she wants to, and I support her. Thanks for writing. YOU are the first person to write about this kind of mistreatment of women. The only thing about this AWFUL mess is - that we must all learn (even the women must learn) to handle such a situation rather better, in the future. Best regards./rap)