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[Pease Porridge]
Bob's Mailbox

Bob Pease  |   ED Online ID #12085  |   March 16, 2006


Dear Bob: The letter from Dave Miller* reminded me of a recent tire episode and questions. The front tires of my Camry needed replacing. The dealer insisted that the new pair go on the rear (and rotated the rear tires to the front). He claimed that was now the recommendation of the tire manufacturers. I recall that new tires used to be put in the front. When did this change, and why?

(What about the recommendation of the car manufacturer? Does its owner's manual give any advice? As far as I'm concerned, recommendations of tire manufacturers are about as valuable (and trustworthy) as you-know-what on a boar hog. When people get stupid, I have to be very skeptical of that advice. Of course, on a rear-wheel drive car, you may want better traction from new tires on the rear. Likewise, on a Camry, you may want better traction from new tires on the front. /rap)

Also, they left a sticker on explaining that the tires were inflated with nitrogen. What's wrong with air, as available at most gas stations?

  • Mike Smolin (via e-mail)
  • Pease: Technically, the oxygen in air can oxidize the rubber a little. So I suppose the dealer is trying to impress a bunch of yuppies. Or, the dealer is admitting its lousy tires are liable to be oxidized... But I guess if we soon will be able to refuel our cars at a hydrogen station, we can fill up our tires at a nitrogen station. What a bunch of crapola. (That's a technical term...)

Dear Bob: Just a quick note to make you aware of my Web site devoted to analog electronics and history. Check out www.kennethkuhn.com/ hpmuseum. Take the picture tour of my shop and museum. This may be one of the largest home electronics shops anywhere. All of this vintage analog electronics is menu driven using an analog GUI—the instruments perform the function the knobs point to. No programming required. Help menus not needed. (That, I like!! /rap) I enjoy your column in Electronic Design. Keep up the good work.

  • Ken Kuhn (via e-mail)
  • Pease: Hello Ken. That's a very nice museum! At first I was worried about those tall racks of equipment—just an invitation for an earthquake to knock them all down (see the figure). But as you appear to live in Alabama, I guess they are safe. I hope you aren't too close to that earthquake site near New Madrid, Illinois, or Missouri, or whatever. I guess you're at least 100 miles away, allowing for the size of Mississippi.

    Do you have a "Wanted List" of old HP instruments or instruction manuals? I too used to study the schematics of the new instruments such as TEK, HP, Data Precision, etc. These days, everything is so computerized, and most of it I hate. Menus, I hate. I prefer your analog GUI. It's like Analog PowerPoint. There also is a Philbrick Archive people should check out. Take a look at www.philbrickarchive.org.

FINDING PAST COLUMNS
People often ask me how they can find a recent column on a particular subject. It's easy to find most of the most recent 200 columns and Mailboxes going back over nine years, and a few dozen before that. Go to my Web site at www.national.com/rap. While you're there, take a peek at some of the horrible pictures. There are also links to various vacuum-tube op amps, other old columns (such as Widlar Stuff), and my Lists.

Next, click on the "ED Columns" and then on "click here." A fairly good little search engine will appear. But if you're interested in my stuff on "doctoring," don't just search on "doctoring," but on "doctoring stuff." If you're interested in searching for recent "Ozone" topics, that turns up nicely, even if there wasn't any column about ozone. It searches the readers' letters, too. /rap *ELECTRONIC DESIGN, Jan. 19, p. 18

See Associated Figure

Comments invited! rap@galaxy.nsc.com —or: Mail Stop D2597A, National Semiconductor P.O. Box 58090, Santa Clara, CA 95052-8090


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    Reader Comments

    I found this article while researching the question of where to put a pair of new tires. What is amazing to me is the lack of critical thinking and the assumption that common sense overrides an expert's recommendation without examining the reasons behind that recommendation.

    All tire manufacturer's that I've found who anser this question on their web sites agree that the new tires should be placed on the rear, regardless of which are the driven wheels. (There is a caveat about non-radial tires though.) The best article explaining the reasons was found at http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/motoring/2003094616_bergholdt30.html. Other articles that I stumbled upon explain the reasons for using nitrogen instead of air in the tires. The main reasons are improved mileage due to less leakage than plain air due to larger molecules that the oxygen molecules in air, the lower moisture level, and the absence of oxygen to react with the rubber. The nitrogen-filled tire pressure fluctuated much less than that in air filled tires. A few years ago, just after having two new tires placed on the FRONT of my Integra, I was driving a little fast for conditions on a downhill curve after a rain. The rear came around and I spun around until stopped by the curb. Thankfully with no damage to the body or suspension. This was an example of the oversteer avoided by placing new tires on the rear. I'll never again put new tires on the front.

    Phil Goldinger -August 01, 2006

    The times that I have had a rear tire blow, I have had trouble even feeling the flat until I changed direction. Then the response can be mushy or unstabel, but still controllable. The times I have had a front blowout, the steering became unpleasant and unstable. I drive a 2002 S-10 and and full size Ford conversion. I much prefer the rear tire loss. BTW- most of my blown tires are from the stones on gravel roads (didn't usually go flat until much later on paved roads. $175 pieces of gravel.), tho I did have nails for 5 years when new homes were built near me...

    RHBody -April 10, 2006

    Bob,

    The explanation for why the new tires should go on the rear can be found at: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=52

    Regards,

    Dean (another ex-Philbrick employee)

    Dean Athanis -April 07, 2006

    Professional motor racing teams use nitrogen, because the behaviour as it changes temperature is much more predictable than for compressed air containing unknown quantities of water. Getting the steady-state tyre (tire) pressure just right can gain tenths of a second per lap, which is useful.

    For normal road use, it makes negligible difference.

    Robert -March 29, 2006

    Don't see why oxygen should leak out of a tyre any faster than nitrogen - it's a diatomic molecule just the same, and a little bit bigger.

    afhurst -March 22, 2006

    Don't know about others, but I've had 5 blowouts at highway speeds, 4 rear, 1 front. Can't say that I lost control or spun out any time. Worst case was trying to get off-road on the outer drive in Chicago during rush hour. My wife lost a rear tire at highway speeds in a loaded dodge van, and it wasn't a panic situation at all, (and a friend was driving the van, who didn't know the vehicle.)

    Even when I lost a tire and it whanged the back end hard enough to trip the fuel pump kill switch, (I thought the bang was the engine blowing, because the engine quit,) I was able to bring the car to the edge of the expressway, (without power steering assist,) and I'd been doing 70.

    Frank Borger -March 17, 2006

    Yay www.philbrickarchive.org. Absolutely fascinating.

    John Macleod -March 16, 2006

    Hi Bob: The "best tires on the rear wheels" is relevant for pre-ABS cars, not so much for modern ones. The reason is, that if you brake hard and the rear wheels block, the car will go into an uncontrolled skid. If the rear wheels keep rolling (and the front ones are blocked) you'll go straight. This is also the reason for the brake pressure reduction valves for the rear wheel brakes. For the viewpoint of a vehicle with a blown rear tire being easier to handle, this is certainly dead wrong. If this happens, the car will spin out of control. For a blown front tire, you'll be able to roll to a controlled stop. I've seen this demonstrated on several videos, but fortunately not had it happen to me. Btw, recommended reaction when a rear tire blows is to stomp on the brakes and hope that the ABS will save you. However, this must be done so fast (before the skid begins) that you'll probably not be able to do it. As for Nitrogen, there's a long thread about it over on www.eng-tips.com. Consensus seems to be that 1: it's a marketing spin. 2: in certain situations it's practical, as it's much easier to carry around a pressure bottle than a compressor, and Nitrogen's cheap.

    Anonymous -March 16, 2006

    Nitrogen is only a marking experiment to see if they can sell Mobil-1 Synthetic Air for your tires. :-)

    Nitrogen in a tire has some advantages over compressed air. Dry nitogen vs wet air, for instance. Not much difference but some. Much the same as Monster Cable for audio speakers.

    As to new tires on the rear, the fronts wear the fastest on front wheel drive cars such as the Camry. You want your oldest tires to wear out first before dry rot gets them. Properly aligned they'll never wear out on the rear. Best to rotate front/rear periodically so all 4 require replacement at the same time.

    David Kelly -March 14, 2006

    I always put the new tires on the rear because a new tire could have a manufacturing flaw and blow out. A vehicle with a blown rear tire is a little easier to handle than one with a blown front tire.

    Ralph -March 14, 2006

    It seems the oxygen in air leaks out of tires much faster than nitrogen. When a tire is first mounted and inflated with air it will loose pressure faster than it will later in life. As air is added, the oxygen leaks out and leaves nitrogen behind. This assumes the driver manages to avoid nails, etc. by driving around them.

    Anonymous -March 14, 2006

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